Alternatives to Abortion

[Lancaster of Wessex]

I don't smile upon irresponsibility too highly and to take away a potential life just because one didn't bother to stick a condom on their dick or take a birth control pill...that doesn't sit too well with me.

Each sperm is a potential life, each egg is a potential life.

Not on their own they're not.

[Lancaster of Wessex]

@ Great Nepal:

Why should taxpayer be forced to bear additional burden when abortion is a lot more cost effective?

You stated this.

You also stated that "nobody is putting a price tag on human life."

Well, you just did.

[Zilam]

helping pregnant women carry their baby to birth, and providing them with the resources to meet the needs of that baby after it is born.

Why should taxpayer be forced to bear additional burden when abortion is a lot more cost effective?

Around 44% decided to have one done out of convenience, whether its because they want to wait, they are in school, or they simply don't want to have any more children. To me, this is really irresponsible. Anytime you have sex, there is a chance for pregnancy. When you have sex, you need to realize that. That is why condoms, spermicide and birth control are out on the market. I realize that some people are prevented from getting access to these. We know that needs to change. But I really hate that people cannot accept responsibility for their actions, and take the easy way out of something they have done. Part of being an adult is taking responsibility for something that one has done.

Anytime you go out to a ground for almost any game, you have a chance that you are going to be seriously injured. So say if that happens, should we say "take responsibility for your action" or should we take you to hospital?
Seriously, the fetus has no right to enslave a woman. If she doesn't want the baby, which at the moment is still part of her body, she should be able to terminate it. Her body her choice.

And why doesn't a proto-human have a chance to live. It didn't asked to be conceived. Why should it not have the right to face life because its mother said it shouldn't live? 9 months isn't anything compared to the 72 years of life.

[Great Nepal]

Each sperm is a potential life, each egg is a potential life.

Not on their own they're not.

A fetus on its own (without a host) is also not a potential life. (well atleast up to a point when it is possible but risky to put it in kind of machine)

[Dyakovo]

4: Abortion is not murder.

Millions, if not billions of people disagree with you.

And millions more will agree with you also.

You can't say you're right; and they can't say they're right either.

You'll have to agree to disagree.

Actually I can say I'm right, since I know what the word actually means. Murder is a very specific legal term.
Abortion fails to qualify as murder on several counts...
1: For a killing to be murder it has to be illegal.
2: For a killing it has to include malice aforethought. i.e. it has to be premeditated and done with the intention of killing another person.
3: For it to be murder a person would have to be killed. This does not happen in an abortion.

[The Murtunian Tribes]

helping pregnant women carry their baby to birth, and providing them with the resources to meet the needs of that baby after it is born.

Why should taxpayer be forced to bear additional burden when abortion is a lot more cost effective?

Around 44% decided to have one done out of convenience, whether its because they want to wait, they are in school, or they simply don't want to have any more children. To me, this is really irresponsible. Anytime you have sex, there is a chance for pregnancy. When you have sex, you need to realize that. That is why condoms, spermicide and birth control are out on the market. I realize that some people are prevented from getting access to these. We know that needs to change. But I really hate that people cannot accept responsibility for their actions, and take the easy way out of something they have done. Part of being an adult is taking responsibility for something that one has done.

Anytime you go out to a ground for almost any game, you have a chance that you are going to be seriously injured. So say if that happens, should we say "take responsibility for your action" or should we take you to hospital?
Seriously, the fetus has no right to enslave a woman. If she doesn't want the baby, which at the moment is still part of her body, she should be able to terminate it. Her body her choice.

Wow, that is...just messed up.

[Dyakovo]

Abortion is, logically, murder.

Wrong

[Great Nepal]

@ Great Nepal:

Why should taxpayer be forced to bear additional burden when abortion is a lot more cost effective?

You stated this.

You also stated that "nobody is putting a price tag on human life."

Well, you just did.

I think I was putting price on a FETUS (which is nice way of saying a cell which sucks the resources off a host body for its own growth).

[Dyakovo]

Except it is ignoring the fact that abortions are sometimes necessary to save the life of the pregnant woman...

No, I recognize that and have addressed it already. However, lets be honest shall we? 6% of abortions are done for medical reasons and 1% are due to violent sexual cases. These are the two most common reasons people think abortion should stay legal and be funded properly and all that. The rest of the reasons deal largely with two other reasons:

the woman feels they don't have the resources to provide for a child
OR
convenience for the woman.

(sources found in at the bottom of here

So while 7% of abortions happen because of rape/incest or possibility of injury or death, 21% happen because the women feel they cannot afford to carry a baby. That is why I posted what I did about just one place that has been open for almost 20 years now, helping pregnant women carry their baby to birth, and providing them with the resources to meet the needs of that baby after it is born.

Around 44% decided to have one done out of convenience, whether its because they want to wait, they are in school, or they simply don't want to have any more children. To me, this is really irresponsible. Anytime you have sex, there is a chance for pregnancy. When you have sex, you need to realize that. That is why condoms, spermicide and birth control are out on the market. I realize that some people are prevented from getting access to these. We know that needs to change. But I really hate that people cannot accept responsibility for their actions, and take the easy way out of something they have done. Part of being an adult is taking responsibility for something that one has done.

Consent to sex does not equal consent to pregnancy.

[Dyakovo]

Might =/= Right.

Abortion is, logically, murder. The entire "proof" that abortion is morally justifiable is based off of the premise that a majority vote (i.e. sociological perceptions) change the reality of human life.

Agreed. Abortion is murder, and is wrong. But as I stated before, right and wrong do not equal legal or illegal. Government itself is wrong, but it is necessary.

Wrong, as I have already pointed out.

[Great Nepal]

And why doesn't a proto-human have a chance to live. It didn't asked to be conceived. Why should it not have the right to face life because its mother said it shouldn't live? 9 months isn't anything compared to the 72 years of life.

Because it is still a parasite and part of a host body which has every right not be enslaved?
If it can survive outside a mother's body, the fine. If not she should be forced to carry the fetus which constantly sucks up resources from her body against her will.

[Great Nepal]

Why should taxpayer be forced to bear additional burden when abortion is a lot more cost effective?


Anytime you go out to a ground for almost any game, you have a chance that you are going to be seriously injured. So say if that happens, should we say "take responsibility for your action" or should we take you to hospital?
Seriously, the fetus has no right to enslave a woman. If she doesn't want the baby, which at the moment is still part of her body, she should be able to terminate it. Her body her choice.

Wow, that is...just messed up.

which part is messed up?

[The Murtunian Tribes]

Wow, that is...just messed up.

which part is messed up?

The part about being enslaved to a fetus. But I have no interest in this dicussion. It's not going to go anywhere good.

[The Murtunian Tribes]

Agreed. Abortion is murder, and is wrong. But as I stated before, right and wrong do not equal legal or illegal. Government itself is wrong, but it is necessary.

Wrong, as I have already pointed out.

Fine. Abortion is not murder, if you want to be that way about it. That doesn't legitimize it.

[Gagatron]

I see no reason to allow a selfish woman to deprive another human being of its life just so she won't need to deal with it.

[Great Nepal]

I see no reason to allow a selfish woman to deprive another human being of its life just so she won't need to deal with it.

I see no reason to allow a fetus to suck resources out of woman and enslave her against her will just so it can survive.

[Dyakovo]

I see no reason to allow a selfish woman to deprive another human being of its life just so she won't need to deal with it.

So according to you women are just walking talking incubators?

[Dyakovo]

Wrong, as I have already pointed out.

Fine. Abortion is not murder, if you want to be that way about it.

I do. Funny thing, I prefer words to be used according to their actual meaning...

That doesn't legitimize it.

No, it being a legitimate medical procedure legitimizes it.

[DASHES]

So if contraception fails, give the baby to someone in the parents' family. Its better than murder.

If it was so easy to get someone willing to adopt a child, why the hell are 134,000 waiting to get adopted?

Handing the baby to the state is also better than murder, but since the foster care system is so crappy,

Why the hell should taxpayer pay for the child?

there are better options, like taking care of what you created by taking care of the baby.

Yea cos woman and her family's right is irrelevant and should be enslaved by the baby which they dont want.

Rape however, is an entirely different context but still the same problem. Orphanages seem decent, but the mother should be keen on find a good one, and coming back to the orphanage from time to time to see how the kid(s) is(are) doing.

See above.

Murder is never justifiable, even if the state permits it for people under age 9 Months. Do somethingother than abortion.

Murder = Killing a Human Being
Abortion = Removing a unwanted organism which feeds on foreign body which gives nothing useful back to host.

Organism which feeds on foreign body which gives nothing useful back to host = Parasite

The only reason it is no longer a crime is because the world is slowly loosing its morality.

1. Removing a parasite from body is immoral?
2. Define Moral.

1. I never said that finding a suitable adopter was easy. I'm saying that the couple who has an unwanted pregnancy should look into their own families for suitable parent before anything else. Who knows? Maybe one of them has a sister who married a sterile guy, and they might want a baby. Can you think of a better refuge for the unwanted child?

2. Why should the Taxpayer pay for the child? Why should the working man's taxes go to thousands of Orphanages and Foster Homes housing many thousands of children? Think about it. These places have given inconvenienced women and their children a shot at living their lives. If these places were never constructed countless more babies would have been aborted, many more women would have died from botched abortions, and for those who did not get abortions, countless children would have been left on the street. Charities and humanitarian projects safe much human life. When the working man and woman give their money to the state to distribute to various institution like Orphanages and Foster Homes, they are supporting a charity. These places are lifesavers. That's why the Taxpayer should pay for the child.

3. Whoa, whoa. So now, if the unwitting couples hunkers down and takes care of the baby they created, they are enslaved. They would be parents, like many others, so whats the difference? After all, slavery is slavery willing or unwilling, right? Maybe you are anti-slavery, eh?
If so, lets ride the rocket to mars and eliminate all slavery by killing all fetuses and young children! Wow! According to you, there would be no more slavery! Ain't that somethin'?


4. Look, Rape is horrific and has a range of consequences. Unwanted pregnancy is often one of them, but that doesn't mean that both the unborn life and the parent should become victims of circumstance. By following my suggestions of abortion alternatives they don't have to become victims of circumstance.

5. Right, we were all parasites once. What are you going to do about it? What am I going to do about it? Nothing. You can't do anything about it. We are still parasites, as we feed on the earth's resources. In fact, our behavior is emulated by many other species as well. Hmm. What are we going to do about that? Nothing. Wait, are you anti-parasite? If so, I'm getting an interesting idea...

6. Sadly, humanity has also lost a sense of common morality, as morals have become a subjective thing that different from person to person. Unless you've got an extensive form in MS Word that I can fill out to inform you of my views of right and wrong, I'm afraid you are going to have to guess here. If it helps you, I am a Christian. Christianity is my Morality's base OS.

And as for removing a parasite from the body, I have one thing to ask you, sir: When you were still growing in your mothers belly, would you have considered it immoral if she stuck a probe in herself to force you out? You would understand; after all, since you were a parasite to her. She had a right to do it, since it was her body, and you were feeding off of her...

[The Murtunian Tribes]

I see no reason to allow a selfish woman to deprive another human being of its life just so she won't need to deal with it.

I see no reason to allow a fetus to suck resources out of woman and enslave her against her will just so it can survive.

I think you both grossly over simplfy the issue.

[DASHES]

I see no reason to allow a fetus to suck resources out of woman and enslave her against her will just so it can survive.

I think you both grossly over simplfy the issue.

True.

[Dyakovo]

I see no reason to allow a fetus to suck resources out of woman and enslave her against her will just so it can survive.

I think you both grossly over simplfy the issue.

Hey! We can agree in this thread...

[The Murtunian Tribes]

I think you both grossly over simplfy the issue.

Hey! We can agree in this thread...

You do know I am pro-choice, right?

[Idaho Conservatives]

I see no reason to allow a selfish woman to deprive another human being of its life just so she won't need to deal with it.

I see no reason to allow a fetus to suck resources out of woman and enslave her against her will just so it can survive.

Do you think that we are over-debating the issue here?

[Gagatron]

I see no reason to allow a fetus to suck resources out of woman and enslave her against her will just so it can survive.

I think you both grossly over simplfy the issue.

Here's the issue. Two irresponsible people have sex, and they can't deal with the consequences. SO what do they do? They kill the baby.

I can understand abortion after rape, but when you have sex voluntarily you need to have in mind that SPERM LIKES EGG.